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Post by Mad As A Haggis Hunt on Dec 21, 2019 14:31:10 GMT
...quite a popular one - the Wembley 1977 version....
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Post by CC on Dec 21, 2019 22:27:22 GMT
Come on now, Mr Hunt, ya cheeky bam. If we are going to have a Broken Crossbar discussion we have to discuss Athlone Town goalkeeper Mick O'Brien, whose antics in the FAI Cup semi final against Finn Harps in 1972 made him, briefly, a household name on both sides of the Irish Sea. I once had the pleasure of a former Bohemians player named Tom Kane taking me from Wicklow to Dun Laoghaire in his taxi, and many of his reminiscences concerned Mick O'Brien. Tom told me that O'Brien was barmy, and scared opposing forwards away from his goal at corners by threatening to beat them up. "Fuck off, Shorty" was his catchphrase. At Oriel Park in the semi final, Harps won 5-0 but were disappointed that the focus was on O'Brien rather than on their easy win. During the first half O'Brien had swung on the crossbar at his end of the ground and broken it, causing a long delay while the damage was put right. Five minutes before the end of the game, with Athlone 4-0 down, the disappointment became too much for the eccentric goalie who climbed up onto the crossbar, at the other end to his first half mishap, and cheers from the crowd alerted the officials and other players to O'Brien sitting in his 6 yard box among the wreckage of the goal frame. O'Brien was sent off and Finn Harps notched another goal past his replacement. This wasn't the Harps' most bizarre semi final, though. In 1998 they met Shelbourne in a match that was held up for 40 minutes in the second half because of a bomb threat. They lost 1-0 from a penalty, scored when goalkeeper Jody Byrne was behind his goal line, looking away from the field and wiping his hands on a towel. Shelbourne's Stephen Geoghegan cheekily put the ball on the spot and tapped it into the net. As Harps players looked on in shock, the ref pointed to the centre and awarded Shels what turned out to be the winning goal.
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Post by Mad As A Haggis Hunt on Dec 22, 2019 14:18:59 GMT
Come on now, Mr Hunt, ya cheeky bam. If we are going to have a Broken Crossbar discussion we have to discuss Athlone Town goalkeeper Mick O'Brien, whose antics in the FAI Cup semi final against Finn Harps in 1972 made him, briefly, a household name on both sides of the Irish Sea. I once had the pleasure of a former Bohemians player named Tom Kane taking me from Wicklow to Dun Laoghaire in his taxi, and many of his reminiscences concerned Mick O'Brien. Tom told me that O'Brien was barmy, and scared opposing forwards away from his goal at corners by threatening to beat them up. "Fuck off, Shorty" was his catchphrase. At Oriel Park in the semi final, Harps won 5-0 but were disappointed that the focus was on O'Brien rather than on their easy win. During the first half O'Brien had swung on the crossbar at his end of the ground and broken it, causing a long delay while the damage was put right. Five minutes before the end of the game, with Athlone 4-0 down, the disappointment became too much for the eccentric goalie who climbed up onto the crossbar, at the other end to his first half mishap, and cheers from the crowd alerted the officials and other players to O'Brien sitting in his 6 yard box among the wreckage of the goal frame. O'Brien was sent off and Finn Harps notched another goal past his replacement. This wasn't the Harps' most bizarre semi final, though. In 1998 they met Shelbourne in a match that was held up for 40 minutes in the second half because of a bomb threat. They lost 1-0 from a penalty, scored when goalkeeper Jody Byrne was behind his goal line, looking away from the field and wiping his hands on a towel. Shelbourne's Stephen Geoghegan cheekily put the ball on the spot and tapped it into the net. As Harps players looked on in shock, the ref pointed to the centre and awarded Shels what turned out to be the winning goal. .......Aye, I remember ya man O'Brien very well, my dear Chalder - pretty sure "On The Ball" on good old ITV featured this story back in the day - along with the "Penalty Prize" stuff they used to do too........ .......heres' another "break in the proceedings"...........
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Post by Drew Steignton on Dec 22, 2019 15:12:15 GMT
Ah, ITV's Penalty Prize. I once worked with a Border region finalist. Took his turn at Palmerston but that's as far as he got. Here's a thought. Did Dumfrieshire people only get English football on the ITV in those days?
Would you be a GAA man yourself, Mr Hunt?
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Post by CC on Dec 22, 2019 16:52:42 GMT
Ah, ITV's Penalty Prize. I once worked with a Border region finalist. Took his turn at Palmerston but that's as far as he got. Here's a thought. Did Dumfrieshire people only get English football on the ITV in those days? Would you be a GAA man yourself, Mr Hunt? It might well have been the case that Dumfriesshire folk got Granada TV because what we get just now on ITV seems to cover Carlisle as much as it does Scotland. I've only ever seen a peadie snippet so I'm now entirely sure, but I saw enough about Cumbria to be not very interested. Besides, on local ITV there's no sign of Judith the foul-mouthed dominatrix weather forecaster who brightens up our day when the forecast is looking dreich. Judith is actually very well-spoken, normally, but a few weeks ago news programme The Nine accidentally played a blooper in which she forgot her lines and said "Oh, fuck." Nobody mentioned it at the time or since, but we know what you're like away from the cameras, hen. In his book The Footballer Who Could Fly (2012) Duncan Hamilton wrote that, in an England match against Germany in May 1956, Duncan Edwards broke the crossbar with a shot from his own half. I don't believe it any more than I accept his further claims that the Berlin crowd all reverted to Nazism for the day and chanted nationalist slogans. Duncan Hamilton was not alive in May 1956 and must have come across some old copies of the Hornet or Hurricane if he believes such daft nonsense. By the way, it's noticeable in Drew's pictures of yesterday's match in Bristol that the corner flags are not actually fixed into the ground and that the goals are on wheels with the posts not in holes but simply standing on the artificial pitch. I guess this means that if Duncan Edwards hit a shot against the bar these days the goal frame would roll backwards. Moving goalposts that jump to avoid shots have always been a problem in Subbuteo but I never expected to see such a thing occur in a real match.
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Post by Mad As A Haggis Hunt on Dec 22, 2019 19:04:22 GMT
Ah, ITV's Penalty Prize. I once worked with a Border region finalist. Took his turn at Palmerston but that's as far as he got. Here's a thought. Did Dumfrieshire people only get English football on the ITV in those days? Would you be a GAA man yourself, Mr Hunt? ..Well, I am that, my dear Drew...…. ...my late Dad was from Callan, County Kilkenny - I am a massive Kilkenny hurling fan, also a fan of Mayo and Tipperary where I have relatives also....
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Post by Drew Steignton on Dec 22, 2019 19:59:48 GMT
Ah the cliffs of Kilkenny. I never knew it had such a glorious coastline.
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Post by CC on Dec 22, 2019 20:04:21 GMT
Aye, that coast reminds me of Derbyshire and the Peak District, with its crashing waves, gannets and wee fishing boats. I have been to Kilkenny and I'll never forget the smell of the sea and emptying the sand out of my wellies at the end of the day.
I'm a son (well, great grandson anyway) of Roscommon, myself. That's another maritime county, of course. My ancestors kept a lighthouse in Castlerea.
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Post by Mad As A Haggis Hunt on Dec 23, 2019 7:22:02 GMT
Ah the cliffs of Kilkenny. I never knew it had such a glorious coastline. ….....Ah - well spotted lads!! - schoolboy error there - although in truth I think its a generic album cover!!…... ….Roscommon Exiles - by Reg Keating…...
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Post by Drew Steignton on Dec 23, 2019 21:06:27 GMT
In his book The Footballer Who Could Fly (2012) Duncan Hamilton wrote that, in an England match against Germany in May 1956, Duncan Edwards broke the crossbar with a shot from his own half. I don't believe it any more than I accept his further claims that the Berlin crowd all reverted to Nazism for the day and chanted nationalist slogans. Duncan Hamilton was not alive in May 1956 and must have come across some old copies of the Hornet or Hurricane if he believes such daft nonsense. Most of Duncan Hamilton's book can be viewed online thanks to Google Books. His source for the description of the atmosphere at the West Germany v England game in 1956 was Arthur Walmsley of the Manchester Evening Chronicle who talked about (as quoted by Hamilton) the "frightening ugly undertones of those pre-war Nuremberg rallies; a people reduced to robots in the insane pursuit of superiority". Walmsley doesn't appear to mention chanting of nationalist slogans although some pages are missing from the online version. I'll check this out if I see a copy of the book when I'm in town tomorrow. We don't know how a reliable witness Walmsley might have been. Nor do we know if he took pre-conceived ideas to Berlin. Alas the available pages don't give any clue as to whether a Duncan Edwards shot hit the crossbar that day. All we have is Duncan Hamilton's father saying that goalkeepers had been known to get out of the way when Edwards took aim at goal. I'm sure my father told me Duncan Edwards could break a crossbar and, online, there is a tale how one of his shots "almost took the crossbar from the top of the posts". I always took this as part of the mythology but shall report further if I can track down a copy of Hamilton's book. If my father was any guide I suspect Edwards was often talked about in reverential terms by those who never saw him based largely, I suspect, upon the tales they read of him in the sports pages of the Daily Express.
One person who met Duncan Edwards was a lad I knew at school who died a few years ago. That's right; somebody of my own age met Duncan Edwards. It happened in Jersey in 1957 when the lad - who was no more eighteen months old - was with his parents when they bumped into Edwards who was also on holiday. Our man never let us forget he was born in Manchester and I think his parents vaguely knew Edwards. A picture was taken and was revealed to be on Facebook at the time of my old school acquaintance's death. Later, together with his father, our man formed the Torbay Reds who ran coaches to most Manchester United home games. Together with a few other sixth-formers I went on their dummy run to Manchester United v Manchester City in 1973. That was a day-and-a-half leaving Torquay late Friday evening and returning at breakfast time on Sunday.
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Post by CC on Dec 23, 2019 21:56:41 GMT
In his book The Footballer Who Could Fly (2012) Duncan Hamilton wrote that, in an England match against Germany in May 1956, Duncan Edwards broke the crossbar with a shot from his own half. I don't believe it any more than I accept his further claims that the Berlin crowd all reverted to Nazism for the day and chanted nationalist slogans. Duncan Hamilton was not alive in May 1956 and must have come across some old copies of the Hornet or Hurricane if he believes such daft nonsense. Most of Duncan Hamilton's book can be viewed online thanks to Google Books. His source for the description of the atmosphere at the West Germany v England game in 1956 was Arthur Walmsley of the Manchester Evening Chronicle who talked about (as quoted by Hamilton) the "frightening ugly undertones of those pre-war Nuremberg rallies; a people reduced to robots in the insane pursuit of superiority". Walmsley doesn't appear to mention chanting of nationalist slogans although some pages are missing from the online version. I'll check this out if I see a copy of the book when I'm in town tomorrow. We don't know how a reliable witness Walmsley might have been. Nor do we know if he took pre-conceived ideas to Berlin. You may well be right about the lack of nationalist chanting in Berlin, Drew. I probably invented that myself when remembering the description of the game and the accusation that the crowd had become vocal about German superiority and created an atmosphere reminiscent of Nazis. As if the German people themselves didn't suffer during the War. I mind as a lad being surprised that WW2 was called a World War when, according to the comics on sale at the time and the films on TV, the only 2 sides taking part were England (with an occasional hand from the USA) and Germany. Japan made an appearance occasionally, their soldiers usually shouting "Ayeee" as they died. In my brother's Kenneth Wolstenholme's Book of the 1966 World Cup, an article supposedly written by Ray Wilson mentioned that England were unbeaten against the Germans not only in football but also in two other conflicts far removed from the football field. I'd have thought that the USSR, who also took part in the competition, might have had something to say about that.
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Post by Drew Steignton on Dec 24, 2019 10:55:23 GMT
"Did you know Duncan Edwards Dad, I mean really really know?
It’s just you’ve kept so many cuttings from all those years ago.
And were the babes the greatest, the greatest ever team?
Or just enshrined here in this history, just a bygone boyhood dream.
Now I know you idolised them Dad, you gave each one their own page, the pictures are well faded now, but I suppose that comes with age."
These are the opening lines of a piece I've found online titled "Did you know Duncan Edwards?" In one place it's referred to as a song; elsewhere as a poem. There's no apparent author. We don't know if it's a song that has been sung for a long time or a poem composed especially for the internet. It's rather too long for many people to know by heart.
It's really a variation on a theme; the way football tales have been passed on orally. I read Duncan Hamilton's book and enjoyed it at the time as a piece of simple nostalgia. It didn't make too deep an impression on me and, like many a football book curiously, I soon forgot it. That might be because, with so many of these books, they re-enforce what I already knew. When Footballers Were Skint by Jon Henderson is another example.
What I already knew or how it was presented to me many years ago? I've done more of my fair share of reading about (primarily English) football in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. That's been worthy, serious books right through to the magazines and newspapers of the time. I also listened to my father and other adults - people mainly born between the wars - talk about football as they saw it and, just as significantly, how football was told to them. They would have watched very little big-time football because of where they were living and seen snatches only at the cinema and, later, on television. The radio? Maybe. Mass circulation newspapers? Certainly. No wonder mythology played its part.
And here's the next verse of "Did you know Duncan Edwards?"
Dad, did Tommy Taylor really head a ball against the bar, which Harry Gregg collected, it had rebounded back so far?
Ah! We're back to crossbars. They appear to be the magic ingredient in a few of these tales.
And here's something as it is now. I've seen Scott Hiley nutmeg Cristiano Ronaldo. It's on You Tube if you're not convinced.
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Post by CC on Dec 24, 2019 17:07:38 GMT
I'm sure a well-read man like yourself will have read My Father & Other Working Class Football Heroes in which Gary Imlach is told that, after Scotland hit the bar (!) with a penalty kick against France in the 1958 World Cup, the ball rebounded up the field and the French attackers took it straight up the field and scored. This story came from one of the players who took part in the match, and is how he remembered the sequence of events, but it isn't true. Scotland did hit the bar from the penalty spot and they did concede a goal but there were a few minutes in between the two incidents.
My brother insists that when we were watching wrestling on television one Saturday afternoon in the 1960s he said to me: "Mick McManus has no manners." I remember the occasion exactly as he does, except my recollection is that it was me who said it. We do agree, though, that we watched a match in the local park one day and someone took a penalty that missed the goal by such a distance that the ball went out for a throw-in. If someone told me that story I'm not sure I would believe it, but there were two of us there and we both remember it happening.
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Post by Drew Steignton on Dec 24, 2019 17:09:47 GMT
In his book The Footballer Who Could Fly (2012) Duncan Hamilton wrote that, in an England match against Germany in May 1956, Duncan Edwards broke the crossbar with a shot from his own half. Found it! It's on page 120 which is one of the pages missing on Google Books. Duncan.Hamilton is visiting Dudley, Edwards' place of birth and burial, when he encounters a parishioner of St Francis Church who was a contemporary of Edwards. Hamilton tells us: "He remembered Edwards cracking and bending the bar from the halfway line in an under 23 international against Holland. The bar vibrated like a tuning fork."I'll give Hamilton the benefit of doubt and say the conversation was genuine rather than an invention. But I'm never sure what to make of an over-reliance upon oral history because it depends too much on the teller's memory, their interpretation of events at the time and their point of view. It's not so bad when efforts are made to substantiate stories. But, when they're left unsubstantiated, I'm cautious. Michael Calvin has written several football books in recent years and has a simple style. He lets people talk and records what they have to say. After the second or third of his books I felt I was being given one dubious explanation - from a single perspective - after another. In Hamilton's case I'd question if this was a chance encounter in a churchyard. Often, when you read the acknowledgements, you see the author has spent countless hours setting up such meetings. That's a particular literary approach I guess. Here we don't know if Edwards' old acquaintance was actually at the match in question. The bar vibrating like a tuning fork resembles what he may have read in the paper the following day. What we do know, and it was remiss of Duncan Hamilton not to check, is that Duncan Edwards never played against Holland in an under-23 international. Nor did he for the full or England B teams of the time. But he did play for England youth against the Dutch in a game that might have received more publicity than it would now and could have been witnessed by forces' personnel. There's also the matter of how anyone - journalist, commentator or spectator - could be absolutely sure the crossbar vibrated in such fashion. I'm sure you'd need to be very close to have any chance of telling. But we've heard such things ourselves when commentators have told us "Bloggins nearly broke the crossbar with that one!" Nearly? Almost? The bar is either broken or it is not. The old boy in Dudley, a goalkeeper apparently, repeats the tale of goalkeepers opting to get out of the way of an Edwards shot. This again points to the mythology surrounding Edwards. I go back to my father and him telling me Edwards was built like a man when he was still a boy. At least I think it was my dad and not Charles Buchan's Football Monthly. It all comes together: Edwards' prodigious talent which shall not diminish, his early death, the Munich crash itself, the way football was reported at the time, the fact it was pretty much (with just a few exceptions) pre-TV, the tall tales that were part of the game's culture. Which brings us back to Berlin and 1956. In The Busby Babes: Men of Magic by Max Arthur there is an interview with Nat Lofthouse who recalls Edwards' goal that afternoon in Berlin: Watch for yourself:
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Post by CC on Dec 24, 2019 17:21:13 GMT
That's pretty definitive, Drew. Lovely piece of skill and finishing from young Edwards there but hardly a Goal of the Month winner.
Here's another enduring football myth: Don Revie changed Leeds United's strip from blue and gold to all white because he wanted them to look like Real Madrid. Except he didn't. It was under previous manager Jack Taylor that Leeds adopted all white; nothing to do with Don Revie or with Real Madrid at all.
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